A few things about me

I want to say something about being gay and I cannot seem to get my words out right.

I was watching Oprah today and the topic of disccusion was “when did I know I was gay”.  On it the panel of men told thier stories of how they knew they were gay and when. The show later concluded with a mother who had  found out her daughter was gay when she was 17 (the daughter) …..however when the daughter was 10 years old she had said to her mother that she thought she was gay because she liked girls. It was heartbreaking to hear both sides of the stories. The mother’s loss of dream and the daughter’s difficulty of dealing with her mother’s reaction.

This is my stand on the whole Homosexuality thing.

I used to believe that it was a SIN and that all gay people would go to hell. That is what my bible taught me and what I was brought up to believe. To be honest, I think I only became aware of this stuff when I was in high school around form 3 or form 4. It was not something that was talked about at home ever! Except when dad said….as an explanation to why a certain man’s son was gay

Dad: “that is the problem with sending your children to Europe for education when they are in thier teens, they learn all these bad manners, if he had left them here, they would not have developed those useless manners and would be more stable…”

However after much discussion with straight friends and watching lots of TV documentaries, talk shows and reading articles here and there, I am now of the belief that many Gay men are born that way. I also believe some hetrosexual men VOLUNTARILY choose this life style. .

My heart goes out to all the gay men who have tried for years and years to hide this aspect of themselves and fought the inner battles. Anyone who has fought an inner battle or struggle should have no problem understanding the dilemma most gay youth grow up with.

On the same hand, a part of me cannot help but shudder in fear at the idea that if my (yet to be born) son or daughter was to come home and say “Mum, I am gay”… where the heck would I even start. That is why I understand how hard it is for parents to deal with the “coming out” of their children…..

Am I making sense….. I just wanted to say.. that

Yes I know my stand on this conflicts with my christian beliefs, …but this is what I say.. How can God let a child be born gay and during thier development process they have feeling for men and not women, why does he let this happen and then condem them to death… is this God working mysteriously…..where is the justice in that……

 I am rambling….

Comments on: "To Be or Not to Be GAY" (10)

  1. I think as a christian homosexuality esp the explosion now is an indication of the signs of the times.The bible talks about the depravity of men knowing men being common place in the last days.For me I don’t feel that God/christianity mix at all.There is no way you can be gay and saved.Homosexuals are among the list of people including idolaters,murderers who will not see heaven as written in the book of Corinthians.I still believe homosexuality is a choice, if it wasnt then the human body would have evolved to deal with this a long time ago don’t you think because anal sex isnt very healthy or safe.
    But on the other hand I am not advocating for people to take up pitchforks and drive all the gays out of town.I believe in live and let live.I may not agree with what they are doing but as long as they don’t try to make me part of it or shove it in my faces, I don’t mind what they do!

  2. Acolyte: Interesting take on the whole thing…I still maintain that for some men and I am not sure what percentage it is not a choice and if they had no choice then how can they be condemed. If a child is born without a leg, we cannot say that the fault lies with the child. I have heard all sorts of explanations about why some children grow up to be gay and it has never really been a solid explanation. Why would a person, well knowing the ridicule, shame, bigotry and ostracisation they will face go ahead and choose that life style.

    I also believe that it is nothing new and that homosexuality has been prevalent throughout the ages only difference is now it is in the media.. but I believe it has always always been there people were just in the closet!

    I am not seeking to change anyone’s view. To each their own.

  3. Dod want to say too much but nobody is born gay .its a spirit ..and it can be cast out

  4. @ Mrembo, Thanks for this post. why anyone would think this is lifestyle choice, I just cant fathom. I have fought the gay battle for over 20 years. i even tried sleeping with girls. Can you imagine how it is for a man to get into be with a girl and feel nothing( he doesnt even get it up?) and yet when he sees an attractive guy, he immediately gets hard on? Sex aprt, the emotional issue is crazy..you dont choose who you fall in love with. Turn that issue to kenya..knowing our society and its intolerance to such things why would one choose to be gay? I tried theraphy, I tried religions( yeah plural),5 years of celibacy and it did not work. I only wish people knew how painful it is to have to hide your feelings to family( mine knows now) and pretend to pals that you are attracted to girls.
    @Aco,
    To you being gay relates to anal sex? I will excuse your ignorance!! I have many pals who have never had sex and they know they are gay. Did you know straight men have more anal sex( with girls) than gay men? I only wih you knew me and then I can tell you my lifestory…this may make you cahnge your mind.

    Joe .. I know for sure I was born gay. I am mature and intelligent enough to now understand that. I cannot trace back to when I started being attrcated to men coz I have never been attracted to girls.

  5. Kenyan Guy,
    Thank you for your input and I guess until people make the effort to listen with an open mind then maybe people can begin to understand.

    You said something which resonated with what Big Al (the man of my life) said to me when I told him about my post. He said that I seemed equate GAY with anal sex and that was not the case. I think I finally got what he was saying. I know this is the issue that perturbs people most and therefore are unable to see beyond that.

  6. At Kenyangay.Anal sex is a major part of the gay lifestyle whether you like it or not.One look at all the toys for sale for gay people will let you know ie butt plugs etc and the prevalance of practices like fisting.You are indignant but face it many gay people like anal sex.Plus your attempts at tarring straight people are laughable, because yes straight people might outnumber gay people but a higher percent of gay people than straight people have anal sex.After all most women do not like anal sex and more men prefer using the right entry than the back door for pleasure.But you are entitled to your own opinions.

  7. @Aco,

    You missed my point completely. Yes gay people engage in anal sex and it is a major part of the gay lifestyle. But it is not synonimous with being gay you must enjoy or engage in anal sex as your first comment says.

    I have done a post supported by research on my blog about this subject. Even without research, I have known am gay for over 20 years and have been in relationships and the first time I had sex( penetrative) with a man was 5 years ago. I tried anal sex and didnt like it and that doesnt change the fact that am gay

  8. ChristianGoingToAHippySchool said:

    One of the many problems with this issue, especially with how it has been politically polarized in the media, is that no one can seem to find middle ground. It’s either ‘it’s natural so it must be right’ it’s all right if it feels good philosophy or ‘they’re gunna burn in Hell!’ radical conservatism. The reality of Christianity is that no one sin is elevated above another; all have fallen short of the glory of God and the wages of sin is [spiritual] death, etc. Another main reality of Christianity is the enduring love and ultimate forgiveness of Jesus’ sacrifice for us on the cross. And that means everyone can be forgiven, no matter their crime, through repentance and faith.

    The reality of the human condition (in the Christian faith) is that humans are imperfect, mentally, psychologically, emotionally, and physically. As fallen creatures, we are not perfect, and we aren’t the way that God intended us to be. We fall prey to lust, of whatever kind (believe me, I do, and I’m chaste), we fall prey to diseases, we fall prey to unkind thoughts and horrible actions.

    The difficulty with defining homosexuality from a biblical perspective in today’s self-conscious and politically correct world is that of, “Well are you saying that being gay’s equal to killing people?” (which believe me, just riles up the hippies in my college). If homosexuality is indeed a sin, which if one takes a purely biblical stance, it is, then yes, since all sins are considered equal in the sight of God. However, I believe that while things are truly black and white, only God knows where the lines are drawn and humans are stuck in this blurry world of fading edges greys and multiple intersecting planes of the variables of human existence, and we’re stuck trying to figure things out between the bible, the Holy Spirit, and prayer.

    Through all my hours and years of prayer, and reflection and discussion and research and soul searching, I have yet to have the Holy Spirit come along to me and say, “Ya know that passage in Leviticus/Ephesians/etc… Well, we changed our minds on that one…” A revelation I would be quite grateful for and readily willing to accept, but I have yet to be convinced that God intended homosexuality for humanity. But God didn’t intend a lot of things for humanity, but they still happened, and as such they are a very real aspect of the human condition.

    I do believe by the nature of humanity’s imperfection that (if we go by the theory that ideal biology reflecting divine intent, biblically sexual relations are defined between a married man and woman) some people are ‘born’ gay. However simply laying it out as ‘hardwired’ or ‘choice’ is too black and white for our grey world. If we deny any element of choice we deny the stunning versatility of the human mind. When most people say ‘choice,’ they are thinking of conscious choice, of “I will have coffee today,” choice. But there are other choices, subconscious choices influenced by environment, upbringing, neural pathology and the bajillions of aforementioned variables of human existence. If a gay person ‘chose’ in this way, then they made no conscious choice and no, it’s not their fault; it’s the fault of the imperfection of humanity. Similarly, if a person is ‘born’ gay, if it’s hardwired in the chromosomes, this is not their fault either. They had no choice in how they were born. However this does not necessarily indicate that this was God’s intention for humanity. Saying that ‘if someone was born this way it must be right’ denies human fallibility, which extends into the physical realm. My mom was born with MS, but I don’t think God meant for her to have it (fends off classmates who are trying to claw her eyes out for ‘comparing homosexuality to a disease,’ which I’m not. I’m comparing disease and homosexuality, as separate things, to deviations from God’s original intent. They are related in that way, not in any other.) But again, none of us are what God intended; we are all imperfect, we are all sinners. I’m not any better than any gay person just because I’m straight. I’m not better than Adolf Hitler, either. I’m just as bad a person as he was even if I haven’t orchestrated genocide (again, I am *NOT* comparing homosexuality to being a psychotic murdering dictator, either).

    I believe that while there is a biological predilection for heterosexuality (our biological purpose being to reproduce), I also believe that the complexities of the human mind make it very and most likely possible that we also choose (on a sub/unconscious level) many aspects of our sexuality. In a hetero-dominated society, someone who might have a biological tendency toward attraction to the same sex might be culturally conditioned to be heterosexual, and live a heterosexual life, just as a person with the biological tendency toward heterosexuality in sexually lenient culture might gravitate toward at least bisexuality because there is no reason not to experience both genders in sexual gratification.

    I find it interesting that even many proponents and defenders of gay rights, those of heterosexual orientation, still say things like, “Well it’s perfectly all right, and nothing’s wrong with it, but I think it’s disgusting.” How can you claim something to be normative and right if you are disgusted by it? I don’t agree with homosexuality but don’t find it disgusting. It just is. Should the holy spirit ever come down and suddenly reverse the biblical stance on homosexuality, I would probably become bisexual simply because it would open up a whole other fifty percent of the population from which to choose a mate. I could *choose* to be bisexual, I could *choose* to be attracted toward my own sex. If it wasn’t a sin there would be no reason for me to be prohibited by it. However, because of the way I believe, that option is not open to me, so I don’t take it. I also fully admit that this ability is unique to a smaller population of people, and the reality for many homosexuals is that to simply ‘choose’ to be straight, or to ‘try to not be gay,’ is an unreal and simplistic expectation.

    The thing with ‘sin’ is, we’ve lost sight of what sin is in our layers of socio-cultural onion rings about the word. We see ‘sin’ as ‘something that is wrong,’ and by extrapolation, ‘something that hurts people.’ Which makes many people struggling to live within their Christian faith with the debate on homosexuality and gay marriage question. “But two people in a loving, committed homosexual relationship aren’t hurting each other, so it must not be wrong, ergo it is not sin.” I disagree, because not all sin directly hurts us or anybody else. It may even help people. Telling a white lie that has no consequences doesn’t hurt anybody either (such as lying about the refugees beneath your floorboards to oppressive regime police types), but it is still equally a sin. But as we learn in the story of Joseph (coat of many colors), God makes the best of every sin, every instant that humanity falls short of God’s divine plan. Ultimately I believe sin is a neediness for God, or the result of a neediness for God, that results in us deviating from God’s original intent for us, to worship and enjoy God forever.

    But if you’re a homosexual Christian, it must be horrible to have to struggle with that kind of conflict in your faith, one that has been culturally elevated and strung with flashing lights for the benefit of politics, and all about something that you can’t help. To a smaller degree, I have the same struggle with things, sexual or otherwise; “Why do I lust like this, feel like this? I was born this way, how can it be wrong?” But each time I think that I come back to the fact that I am imperfect and so therefore even though I was born like this I’m still not the way God meant for me to be. That will only happen when I die, go to heaven, go meet Jesus, etc.

    It has to be especially hard in a societal and cultural context that has demonized homosexuality, to admit that homosexuality is a sin when everyone is already screaming at you that you’re going to hell. No one wants to admit they’re wrong, especially when the ‘wrong’ is not their fault. Yet more of the trials of the human condition. It’s a sticky mess for we humans, and I think only through the love of God will we even survive it much less work through it. We can do our best, but ultimately that’s up to God. God might have changed God’s mind since Leviticus. I don’t think biblical evidence supports that, but it might have happened. Maybe all the references to homosexuality being a sin were purely cultural and environmental and not spiritual. But it’s God opinion that matters, not ours, whichever side of the equation it might fall on.

    I believe a homosexual couple is just as capable of having a loving, committed relationship as a heterosexual couple, and ultimately, what any person does with any other person is between them a God and not between them and anybody else because God is the only judge. If you’re homosexual and Christianly inclined, that’s between you and God. It all depends on what you can live with. If you can’t live without sexual fulfillment, then you will probably make the choice to have sex, and from everything I have read, observed, and prayed about, that would be a sin. I believe, and these are my believes not fact because nobody’s got everything right and everybody’s got something wrong, that being homosexually oriented is not a sin but a result of humanity’s general falleness, but having homosexual sex (just like premarital or extramarital sex or general lustful thoughts, which as Jesus said are just as bad as sinful lustful actions) is, because it was not God’s intention for humanity. The bible never prohibited *love* (and love is most certainly not always sexual) between anybody, of the same gender or no, it only prohibited *sexual* relationships outside of heterosexual marriage. Then again, that’s easy for me to say because I’m straight. I don’t have to deal with it like you do. And my heart goes out to homosexual people of whatever religious or philosophical persuasion, and especially to those struggling with their Christian beliefs, because whether by genetics, subconscious or conscious choice, or whatever is the deciding factor, you are going to have to deal with hard times and hard intolerance and hatred from many sides. Many of you I do agree did not choose to be the way you are; it just is at this point. I believe that if you have the strength and the faith in God you’ll be able to get through that, and to remain chaste if you believe that’s what God is calling you to do. I’ve known people who have.

    However, in our human world that is tinted grey, even when we try to strive to be like Jesus, even knowing that we can’t, we still sin. And we compromise; even though all sin is equal, we are far more willing to say a white lie than we are to commit murder. It all depends on what we are willing to do as people. The hierarchy of sins is a socio-cultural and purely human one. Biblically, God made no differentiation. So if you’re homosexual and you can’t live without sexual fulfillment, and you are willing to live with that then the sex you have is between you and God. And through the sacrifice of Jesus, God forgives all our sins. But many people, including many homosexuals, don’t believe homosexuality is a sin, and to that I say I believe you must always have the capacity to admit that you might be wrong, no matter how close to you the issue is. And that’s certainly not some patronizing crumb I’m ‘handing out’ to ‘the poor homosexuals who just can’t help themselves.’ That’s a huge part of my faith and my spirituality, is to admit that I could be totally off my rocker and be wrong about everything I believe. I don’t *know* that my beliefs are right. I believe and I have faith, and I do my poor best to live in the way that I believe God intended me to, and often times fail. I believe that no matter how many times we read the bible, study scripture, read theologians’ life’s work, pray and desperately listen for the voice of God, we’re never going to know where the black and white is. We’re never going to know every sin we commit or even believe that some things we do are sins. Only God is going to know that and I believe we have to submit ourselves to God’s love, care and judgement, because we trust God to forgive us no matter what we do, what we’ve believed, if we were wrong, right, or indifferent.

    I pray that God will forgive me for the times when I have not been forgiving, for the times when instead of acting like I was just as much of a sinner as anybody else I became angry at the proponents for homosexuality because ‘I was right and they were wrong,’ because ‘I had done all the research and they were just reacting to emotions arisen from anecdotal evidence,’ because ‘nobody was examining all the facts.’ It doesn’t matter the excuse. It was wrong, and I hope you’ll forgive me too.

    In the Christian faith, it all comes down to the fact that Jesus is Lord and Savior, and everything else is secondary. Yes, sin matters, but all are sinners, everyone no exceptions except Jesus and we’re all equal before God. I say we focus on the salvation of Christ and take our personal struggles and trials to God and to each other for help and guidance and council, even when we disagree with each other, and love each other as God intended.

  9. ChristianGoing……
    That was one hella of a long post. 🙂 .. well said and food for thought, I have read it through and I am now going to print it to read it again.

    I admire your faith and I am desperatly searching for faith like that. I like the the intelligence that shines through your post.. it is not a simple faith that says believe because “the bible says”. That has not been enough for me…… I will not lie, I am struggling hard with my faith, a lot of turmoil, doubts and questions and the post on Homosexuality is but a reflection of this….

    I will not comment directly yet on the post because I feel I have not taken it all in.. but I will return with my thoughts on this issue….

    You say, that we must submit ourselves to God’s love and care.. which is all good, but how hard is it, when say, parents see in thier growing son the effiminate tendencies and does they best to “gently and paitently direct thier son towards more masculine behaviour and all fails and later as an adult the child says “mum, dad, I am gay”…..My mind struggles with the concept of leaving it all to God…
    Do you see my dilemma… .I know my faith is weak……

  10. ChristianGoingToAHippySchool said:

    @Mrembo

    Apologies for the length… 🙂 My verbosity is quenched by little. I just tend to be long winded. 🙂

    But you’re right, it’s an incredibly hard issue, one that has challenged my faith as well, especially in a world that is throwing so many things that challenge us and our beliefs, where what we believe may not be popular or accepted, and we’re not even sure ourselves.

    In the human way of things, I’ve tried for years to find some way to reconcile my faith and the the concept of homosexuality and the conflict it presents in today’s society, to find some definitive answer on either side, to not have to explain that just because I disagree with it doesn’t mean I’m against gay rights or homophobic. And through those struggles I keep returning to the fact that there is nothing I *can* do to solve the conflict. There are, however, things I can *do,* that may make a difference, in however small away, like opening a dialogue with ultra-conservative people about homosexuality and trying to dislodge the strict stereotype they hold about homosexuality, predominantly influenced by the stereotype that gay men are always ‘camp’ and gay women are always ‘butch,’ and their own fear of the unknown. I feel called by the holy spirit to do this, because I believe it is a piece in the pattern and results in hatred, something that as humans I don’t believe we have a right to do. How can we hate our brothers and sisters, by whatever justification other children of God when we are equally fallen short of God’s glory?

    We can certainly do our part, and I certainly don’t think we can passively just say, “Oh, everything will be all right… God will take care of it,” but ultimately God is going to be the only force that can resolve these conflicts. I think the best change we can make is by sharing God’s love with everyone, regardless of whether or not we agree with them, they agree with us, or anybody thinks anybody else is right.

    Your example about the parents is particularly heartbreaking because even though it seems so deceptively gentle and meek, it is an insidious form of conditioning that I think is largely based on ignorance and preconceived ideas of normalcy that haven’t been examined and reflected upon. It’s all right to have your own opinion about what is normal and right, but such a huge decision should not be made without due consideration, reflection and prayer.

    What is masculine and what is feminine are largely cultural constructs that might reflect biology (eg. men are usually physically stronger so culturally they take on the roles that require strength, and that therefore becomes perceived as masculine), but in today’s world where so many cultures are meeting each other ways they never have before and people can go beyond their own culture, who is to say what is ‘manly’ or ‘womanly?’ And while effeminacy is certainly stereotypically associated with being a gay man, that too could probably be mostly cultural, and certainly can’t be held as a standard of ‘Oh, if you’re girly you must be gay.’ I’ve heard people often use the anecdote of the effeminate gay man, ‘wanting to clean house and bake cookies.’ What is unmasculine about baking cookies, I ask? Obviously this is a simplistic example, but it raises the point of, “Who or what determines what is masculine or feminine?”

    While gender roles, constructs, and criteria are culturally and societally based, I think ultimately what makes a person masculine or feminine, is respectively a man or woman doing their best to fulfill all the potential God gave them. Everything else is just proclivity or preference, even if it is a nation- or culture-wide preference.

    If your parent example is a true story, I think they should support their son’s interests and passions, whatever they may be, whether it’s baking cookies or sewing doll’s clothes (exaggerated examples of ‘effiminate tendencies,’ I realize I’m inferring a lot, but that’s what comes to mind), and if he does come up one day and say, ‘Mum, Dad, I’m gay,” they they should support and love him regardless of whether or not they agree with him or think it’s right. But for all they know their son’s ‘feminine tendencies’ have no relation whatsoever to his sexuality. A boy playing barbies with the girls at the playground doesn’t make him gay any more than a girl playing ball with the boys makes her lesbian. We see the latter as a reflection of feminism and equality but the former as a determinant of sexuality? That makes no sense to me, and I think stereotyping homosexuals this way degrades them even more than they already are.

    Sorry for the long post again. What you said about the parents and their son made me think about a lot of things I’ve seen, and discussions I’ve had about gender and gender roles and what a complex role they play in our lives.

    Our job as Christians is to plant the seeds of God’s love wherever we go, and to share the word of Jesus. We can only plant the seeds and God will bring them to bear fruit. In this way, with your parent example, you can plant the seeds of God’s love by opening a dialogue with them about the support of their son, and pray that God will give them a new wisdom and insight into their son’s life. Leaving it all up to God is sometimes incredibly hard, sometimes incredibly liberating, and a lot of times confusingly and simultaneously both. Many times it’s also very awkward to broach something like that, something that might not seem ‘to be your business,’ or because it can be such a taboo or sensitive issue depending on context, and the only thing I can do in those situations is pray for God to give me courage to speak out when I might be uncomfortable, or afraid, of being yelled at, not being liked, of being considered, “not ‘Christian’ enough.”

    I don’t have all the answers, and I definitely know I don’t have even a handful, which can be a frustrating and scary place to be, however I think that we can all help each other toward getting closer to answers by sharing our own thoughts and participating in discussions just like this. These kinds of discussions have definitely helped me find a little more clarity in a muddy world before, and I thank you for making me think on this issue from another angle. I hope my overly long ramblings have done the same for you. 🙂

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